This episode and the next were some of my favorites! I want to say how truly moving it is that you speak with such joy, enthusiasm and deep sense of wonder in all of your work. It seems adults can often forget to look around and be awe inspired by the jaw-dropping world around us and within us. Your excitement for what you’re sharing is so palpable, heartwarming and so, so appreciated!
Thinking about animals using their colors for mating made we wonder if women’s choice of colors in clothing may fluctuate with ovulation. Never thought about that!
I’ve always been fascinated with linguistic relativity. It’s one of my favorite things to think about regarding the power of language. I always encourage my flute students to expand their descriptive words for shades of colors (and other things) in order to deepen their possibilities for expressive tone colors in their playing.
Hi David, thank you for your fascinating two-part discussion on color!
I have a quick question, regarding the Mary's room thought experiment.
Isn't it possible that if Mary knew everything about color, she would have known about the Benham's top, a black/white pattern that produces the sense of color when spun, and actually experienced color while within the black and white room by spinning the top?
Same question would apply though: when she actually spins the Benham's top, does she experience something (the qualia of color) that all her models and equations didn't fully describe?
Ah, yes. Whether the first color experience is within the black and white room or outside the room may be rather secondary to the whole argument. I think the thought experiment makes the point more dramatic by assuming there is no way to experience color in the black and white room.
Thanks for the nice notes about the episode. Regarding purple being a color of mourning in Brazil, this is something I've seen in writing for a long time. I've just re-checked on this and found millions of Google results verifying this.
Fwiw, here's AI's take on it:
"In Brazil, particularly among devout Catholics, purple is considered a color of mourning.
Here's why:
* Religious Significance: Purple symbolizes the suffering and sorrow associated with Jesus Christ's crucifixion for Brazilian Catholics.
* Worn Alongside Black: Many devout Brazilian Catholics wear purple along with black when grieving the loss of a loved one.
* Considered Disrespectful Otherwise: In some parts of Brazil, wearing purple when not attending a funeral or during a period of mourning is considered unlucky and disrespectful, as it holds a sacred meaning."
Hope this helps and thanks again for your engagement!
Interesting. I googled it in English and found lots of references, but when I did the same in Portuguese I got the following (which makes sense to me, but Brazil is huge so there's room for basically everything).
FWIW, I drive by a funeral home a couple of days a week, and I barely see anyone in black, either - again, local cultures vary enormously).
“Qual a cor do luto no Brasil?
Visão geral criada por IA
+5
No Brasil, a cor do luto é tradicionalmente o preto. Essa cor simboliza a tristeza, a ausência de luz e a escuridão associadas à perda de um ente querido. O uso do preto como cor do luto é uma prática comum em muitas culturas ocidentais, incluindo o Brasil, e remonta a séculos de tradição e simbolismo.
O preto é associado ao luto porque representa a ausência da pessoa falecida e a introspecção que acompanha o processo de luto. Além disso, o preto é visto como uma cor que evoca a seriedade e o respeito pelo momento da perda.
Embora o preto seja a cor predominante do luto no Brasil, algumas pessoas podem usar outras cores como o branco, que pode representar a paz e a busca por tranquilidade durante o período de luto. No entanto, o preto continua sendo a cor mais amplamente utilizada e reconhecida como símbolo de luto no país.
Wow. The way a question is phrased can affect the response, presumably in any language. But that the language used to ask a question in a Google search can have such a drastic impact on the supposedly factual answer is quite eye-opening. It wasn't just the AI summary that was different. The content of the top search results was different.
(And of course I had to use Google Translate, Portuguese to English, to understand the Portuguese response to the Portuguese question. Computerized translations are clearly much better than they were years and years ago when a translation from one language to another and then back to the first language could yield some astonishingly discordant results. But I hadn't considered the potential impact of translating before or after posing a question to a Google search.)
Construímos mentalmente o mundo exterior em nosso interior. Isso significa que existem seres extraterrenos semelhantes a nós porem milenarmente mais experientes milhões de "voltas de nosso planeta em torno de nossa estrela", eles veriam o mesmo mundo em que vivemos de forma e talvez com dimensões bem diferentes. Possivelmente também não viveriam na sujeição do passado como uma imensa cauda deturpando observações impedindo a ação transformando-as em simples reações. Tão pouco se identificariam com o corpo como nós fazemos. O que você acha dessas conclusões?
Since I don't understand Portuguese, I took the liberty of using Google Translate which yielded the following translation of Gilberto Alexandre Da Silva's comment into English. I hope it is reasonably correct:
"We mentally construct the external world within ourselves. This means that there are extraterrestrial beings similar to us, but with millennia more experience, millions of "circles of our planet around our star." They would see the same world we live in, but in a very different form and perhaps with very different dimensions. They would also likely not live in the grip of the past, like an immense tail distorting observations, preventing action, transforming them into mere reactions. Nor would they identify with the body as we do. What do you think of these conclusions?"
Now speaking for myself, I mostly agree, though I would still reserve judgement on whether there are other extraterrestrials similar to us. But if they are similar to us, this mostly makes sense to me. However I would argue the opposite view that such beings might very well live in the supposed grip of the past, because that is what would make them intelligent. Without considering prior experiences to modify (distort?) our actions in response to stimuli, we would be purely instinctive (merely reactive) creatures. It's our memory that allows us to flexibly adapt to the current situation we face.
I'm also not sure that these hypothetical extraterrestrials would not identify with the body. Again, it's very hard to say, since evolution of intelligence of biological beings on earth seems to be entirely tied to an ever more complex integration of bodily sensations and mental thoughts. The mental thoughts depend on our having a body. Would these extraterrestrials be lacking in a physical body of some kind. I'm not saying that that is impossible, just that it is hard for me to imagine, much as it is hard for me to imagine a color I have never seen yet.
What’s the problem!!!???? Experience involving sense perception is something different from possessing a theoretical understanding of some phenomenon. Why assume they should somehow coincide?
Good question. The difference is that if we have a mechanical explanation of digestion, it's fair to say we understand it entirely. We could in theory build a machine that does exactly the same thing.
However, when it comes to private, subjective experience (like color perception), nothing we write down/simulate tells us anything about the experience of purpleness. Qualia cannot explained by an understanding of the pieces and parts, while digestion can. Hope this helps.
While we might register light of a single wavelength as a specific color, mostly our experience of color is the result of the combination of multiple wavelengths of light. You might say that the brain performs a kind of physical evaluation of the input from multiple sensors in the retina to create an experience of color. It might be possible to model the neural combination of sensory inputs from the 3 types of cones (roughly red, green and blue) through a mathematical process, similar to how the inputs from the red, green and blue sensors in a digital camera are mathematically combined to provide us with a color picture that is remarkably comparable to what we would see with our own eyes.
But anyone who spends much time working on photographs will probably caution against pushing the comparison between photography and human vision too far. The structure of a camera is similar to the structure of the eye, but the process that turns visual input into vision is rooted in the neurology of the brain; we decide how and when to take a photograph, how to process the film or digital file into a picture, and how to interpret that picture.
This episode and the next were some of my favorites! I want to say how truly moving it is that you speak with such joy, enthusiasm and deep sense of wonder in all of your work. It seems adults can often forget to look around and be awe inspired by the jaw-dropping world around us and within us. Your excitement for what you’re sharing is so palpable, heartwarming and so, so appreciated!
Thinking about animals using their colors for mating made we wonder if women’s choice of colors in clothing may fluctuate with ovulation. Never thought about that!
I’ve always been fascinated with linguistic relativity. It’s one of my favorite things to think about regarding the power of language. I always encourage my flute students to expand their descriptive words for shades of colors (and other things) in order to deepen their possibilities for expressive tone colors in their playing.
Thanks for your amazing work!
Sometimes a lack in sensors gets logic that uses other inputs....
Here's an interesting issue where some people have imbalance issues because they walk based on sound rather than feel!
https://youtube.com/watch?v=GoAH3R0tuag
Hi David, thank you for your fascinating two-part discussion on color!
I have a quick question, regarding the Mary's room thought experiment.
Isn't it possible that if Mary knew everything about color, she would have known about the Benham's top, a black/white pattern that produces the sense of color when spun, and actually experienced color while within the black and white room by spinning the top?
Love that -- what a great hack on Mary's Room! 😄
Same question would apply though: when she actually spins the Benham's top, does she experience something (the qualia of color) that all her models and equations didn't fully describe?
Ah, yes. Whether the first color experience is within the black and white room or outside the room may be rather secondary to the whole argument. I think the thought experiment makes the point more dramatic by assuming there is no way to experience color in the black and white room.
Hello David. About episode 2 on color: where does the information on Brazil and purple come from?
It was a great episode, by the way. The aspects of color and culture are fascinating, including the Thai synesthete. Nice catch! :-)
Thanks for the nice notes about the episode. Regarding purple being a color of mourning in Brazil, this is something I've seen in writing for a long time. I've just re-checked on this and found millions of Google results verifying this.
Fwiw, here's AI's take on it:
"In Brazil, particularly among devout Catholics, purple is considered a color of mourning.
Here's why:
* Religious Significance: Purple symbolizes the suffering and sorrow associated with Jesus Christ's crucifixion for Brazilian Catholics.
* Worn Alongside Black: Many devout Brazilian Catholics wear purple along with black when grieving the loss of a loved one.
* Considered Disrespectful Otherwise: In some parts of Brazil, wearing purple when not attending a funeral or during a period of mourning is considered unlucky and disrespectful, as it holds a sacred meaning."
Hope this helps and thanks again for your engagement!
Interesting. I googled it in English and found lots of references, but when I did the same in Portuguese I got the following (which makes sense to me, but Brazil is huge so there's room for basically everything).
FWIW, I drive by a funeral home a couple of days a week, and I barely see anyone in black, either - again, local cultures vary enormously).
“Qual a cor do luto no Brasil?
Visão geral criada por IA
+5
No Brasil, a cor do luto é tradicionalmente o preto. Essa cor simboliza a tristeza, a ausência de luz e a escuridão associadas à perda de um ente querido. O uso do preto como cor do luto é uma prática comum em muitas culturas ocidentais, incluindo o Brasil, e remonta a séculos de tradição e simbolismo.
O preto é associado ao luto porque representa a ausência da pessoa falecida e a introspecção que acompanha o processo de luto. Além disso, o preto é visto como uma cor que evoca a seriedade e o respeito pelo momento da perda.
Embora o preto seja a cor predominante do luto no Brasil, algumas pessoas podem usar outras cores como o branco, que pode representar a paz e a busca por tranquilidade durante o período de luto. No entanto, o preto continua sendo a cor mais amplamente utilizada e reconhecida como símbolo de luto no país.
Wow. The way a question is phrased can affect the response, presumably in any language. But that the language used to ask a question in a Google search can have such a drastic impact on the supposedly factual answer is quite eye-opening. It wasn't just the AI summary that was different. The content of the top search results was different.
(And of course I had to use Google Translate, Portuguese to English, to understand the Portuguese response to the Portuguese question. Computerized translations are clearly much better than they were years and years ago when a translation from one language to another and then back to the first language could yield some astonishingly discordant results. But I hadn't considered the potential impact of translating before or after posing a question to a Google search.)
Construímos mentalmente o mundo exterior em nosso interior. Isso significa que existem seres extraterrenos semelhantes a nós porem milenarmente mais experientes milhões de "voltas de nosso planeta em torno de nossa estrela", eles veriam o mesmo mundo em que vivemos de forma e talvez com dimensões bem diferentes. Possivelmente também não viveriam na sujeição do passado como uma imensa cauda deturpando observações impedindo a ação transformando-as em simples reações. Tão pouco se identificariam com o corpo como nós fazemos. O que você acha dessas conclusões?
Since I don't understand Portuguese, I took the liberty of using Google Translate which yielded the following translation of Gilberto Alexandre Da Silva's comment into English. I hope it is reasonably correct:
"We mentally construct the external world within ourselves. This means that there are extraterrestrial beings similar to us, but with millennia more experience, millions of "circles of our planet around our star." They would see the same world we live in, but in a very different form and perhaps with very different dimensions. They would also likely not live in the grip of the past, like an immense tail distorting observations, preventing action, transforming them into mere reactions. Nor would they identify with the body as we do. What do you think of these conclusions?"
Now speaking for myself, I mostly agree, though I would still reserve judgement on whether there are other extraterrestrials similar to us. But if they are similar to us, this mostly makes sense to me. However I would argue the opposite view that such beings might very well live in the supposed grip of the past, because that is what would make them intelligent. Without considering prior experiences to modify (distort?) our actions in response to stimuli, we would be purely instinctive (merely reactive) creatures. It's our memory that allows us to flexibly adapt to the current situation we face.
I'm also not sure that these hypothetical extraterrestrials would not identify with the body. Again, it's very hard to say, since evolution of intelligence of biological beings on earth seems to be entirely tied to an ever more complex integration of bodily sensations and mental thoughts. The mental thoughts depend on our having a body. Would these extraterrestrials be lacking in a physical body of some kind. I'm not saying that that is impossible, just that it is hard for me to imagine, much as it is hard for me to imagine a color I have never seen yet.
Understanding digestion is not digestion.
What’s the problem!!!???? Experience involving sense perception is something different from possessing a theoretical understanding of some phenomenon. Why assume they should somehow coincide?
Good question. The difference is that if we have a mechanical explanation of digestion, it's fair to say we understand it entirely. We could in theory build a machine that does exactly the same thing.
However, when it comes to private, subjective experience (like color perception), nothing we write down/simulate tells us anything about the experience of purpleness. Qualia cannot explained by an understanding of the pieces and parts, while digestion can. Hope this helps.
Thanks for your response. I have something to say about that, but it’ll have to wait.
While we might register light of a single wavelength as a specific color, mostly our experience of color is the result of the combination of multiple wavelengths of light. You might say that the brain performs a kind of physical evaluation of the input from multiple sensors in the retina to create an experience of color. It might be possible to model the neural combination of sensory inputs from the 3 types of cones (roughly red, green and blue) through a mathematical process, similar to how the inputs from the red, green and blue sensors in a digital camera are mathematically combined to provide us with a color picture that is remarkably comparable to what we would see with our own eyes.
But anyone who spends much time working on photographs will probably caution against pushing the comparison between photography and human vision too far. The structure of a camera is similar to the structure of the eye, but the process that turns visual input into vision is rooted in the neurology of the brain; we decide how and when to take a photograph, how to process the film or digital file into a picture, and how to interpret that picture.